It’s the much-loved, oft-quoted movie that some believe defines the very core of male/female relationships.
Of course, I’m talking about “When Harry Met Sally.” Admit it, guys, you’ve seen it, despite its possible categorization of a “Chick Flick.” (Perhaps that’s just because you still fantasize about Meg Ryan circa 1989, but perhaps that’s only my roommate.) Anyway, throughout the movie, the characters debate on the nature of relationships.
Harry believes that “men and women can’t be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.” Sally disagrees, stating that she has “a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.” For Harry, it is black & white: “No man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.”
As for me, I’m on the fence.
I’ve had a number of male friends over the years, most of which have been 100% platonic. True, there have been the friends-turned-romances in the past which came complete with high hopes for their success, since everyone SAYS you should start out as friends anyway, yet for one reason or another they didn’t live up to the hype. Yet besides this handful, I’ve successfully separated Friends & Relationships, not to mention Sex.
Still, something that Harry says also strikes a chord with me, because though I haven’t dated them, I find MANY of my guy friends attractive. Am I attracted TO them? Not always. But Attractive? Most of the time. Is this a girl vs. guy thing, or does the “Attracted to” vs. “Finding them Attractive” disparity mean more than a gender difference? Not to sound too Carrie-Bradshaw-esque (which yes, I DO get compared to on a regular basis), but this poses the question: Can Men & Women ever REALLY be ‘just friends’?
In my optimistic, rose-coloured glasses view of the world, I would like to say a resounding ‘yes.’ If I found out that my guy friends were only sticking around because somewhere in the back of the head they had some inane fantasy about knocking my boots, well, I’d lose not only respect for them, but some invaluable friendships in the midst of the fallout. I would like to think that we, as the mature adults that we’re at least pretending to be, can handle this ‘separation of church and state’ (in a sexual sense, of course). We’ve got our friends on the left, our love interests (potential or actual) on the left, and never the two shall meet.
Reality? I think not.
Too often, when we’re feeling a little bit down or low or are long-overdue for a boost of self-esteem that only a new crush can bring, we begin to look around and consider our options. ‘What about Joe?’ we say. “We’ve been friends forever. And his new beard is oh-so scruffy and delicious. Perhaps? Could we? Could it work?” This is when I wish the universe had a game-show style buzzer, nixing our irrational thoughts for all the world to hear (and to embarrass us enough to never think them again.) Because honey, 99.9% of the time, no. It will NOT work. Proceed straight to the mirror, tell yourself how fabulous you are single OR attached, and go treat yourself to a Hot Fudge Sundae (with cherry on top, to boot.)
As for guys, well, being a phallic-less gal o’ fantabulousness, I can’t speak for them. I can say, however, that it takes two to tango, or, in this case, NOT tango, as it may be. I’ve not been on the receiving end of many unwarranted advances by someone I would staunchly place in the “just friends” category, meaning either a) I’m not that cute (which I refuse to believe) b) guys can separate “girl friends” and “girlfriends” just as well as we can separate “guy friends” and “boyfriends” or c) they DO want us, but just have better self restraint.
So where do YOU lie? Is Harry’s theory a bunch of hooey, or is Sally a bit ignorant on the matter of relationships even if she CAN fake one hell of an orgasm? Or is it somewhere in between?
Please tell me your thoughts. For once, I’m befuddled.
AubreySabala.com 
it depends on the guy, there are basically two extremes:
let’s call the first one ‘spackleboy’
i name him this after an associate of mine who was called this and says, “yeah, i got that nickname b/c i would fill any hole at least once” (yes he is quite the charmer indeed…)
so basically every girl he knew, he was just waiting to figure out some way to charm her, and then he’s ‘in there’
the second one let’s call ‘i am just a little to in touch with my feminine side guy’
has many friends that are women and almost seems asexual
i would write more but its more fun to talk about the other…
so every guy is basically in some way leaning toward either side
i myself think extremism in any form is not good (unless its the weekend, then all bets are off…)
i have A LOT of women that are very good friends of mine who are attractive, but i am not attracted to (for various reasons…too skinny, no ass, whines too much) or that ‘thing’ is not there (in fact i was talking to one girl and she just wanted to be friends, i replied ‘i have hot smart girls as my friends coming out of my ass, i really don’t need anymore…i was pissed and drunk, what are you going to do)
yet there are at least 2 friends of mine that if things were different (they didn’t have a boyfriend, i work with them, out of town, etc.) then i would do my best to try to do very bad things to them on a repeatable basis over a long period of time
so in conclusion, every guy is different and usually depends on the girl…
and just remember, we are not as complicated as you
Harry’s right, though I may only think that because my entire love life is a constant repetition of the plot line of that film.
Guys don’t pounce on their female friends because we’re basically chickenshit pansies afraid of rejection. Girls, on the other hand, just sublimate their desire by setting you up with all of their friends and then hashing through the gory details for hours at a time.
While the part of me that really enjoyed Evolutionary Psychology in college wants to say Harry is absolutely right, it’s all biological and can’t be helped, I can’t help but think the mental factor plays a role as well. Though I must say that, much the way men tend to fall back to the “lizard brain” (limbic system) while women tend to stay in the “evolved brain” (prefrontal cortex), I think men will tend to fall back to the evolutionary/biological Harry theory when faced with a “fight or flight” (“sex or friend”) situation.
But as I was beginning to say… I think it comes down to “onset intent”. Of course, this isn’t absolute, is probably entirely oversimplistic, and let’s not forget that it’s from a guy’s perspective, so I could just be blowing smoke or smoking blow or whatever…
When you first meet someone, you can hate them, be indifferent, like them, or LIKE them. We won’t get into the other possibilities or their varying degrees for the sake of saving you from SOME of the babble, but if you LIKE them, then whenever you are with them, that very fact is an enduring part of your thoughts until you are no longer with them. Though depending on the strength of that LIKE, there may be lingering effects. This creates an intention in your mind (and heart). The fact is, were the circumstances right (circumstantial harmony), you might have hooked up right then and there, eventually leading to the big S (not to be confused with Silverstien’s Big O). While more often than not, the circumstances don’t line up (circumstantial discord), the intention stays with us. And it lasts for years. And years. Though it can be overcome (erroded) by many years of friendship (diminishing possibility of circumstantial harmony), until that one day when you’ve been friends for so darn long, nothing else could possibly make sense. Don’t get me wrong, this doesn’t mean the hope ever goes away, it just means it no longer seems “right” to even imagine the fulfillment of that hope, so guilt is the result of the residual intent. And that guilt is on par with having the big S with your little s(ister). It just can’t happen.
So, if you were friends at the onset and that was your greatest level of intent at the time, it will never work out for you being more than friends. If however, at the onset, you would gladly have been more than friends, but you lacked circumstantial harmony, it can absolutely work out, because in your mind, you would never have chosen to be “just friends”.
OR…
_I_ could just be full of hooey.
Yes, Shawn you just might be full of Harry’s Hooey. However, I like the onset intent (OI) idea. That explains alot. When most guys meet a new gal, our onset intent is usually a binary choice, Yes or No, for the big S (BS). So, if OI=Y*BS then you may not have made a new friend of the female persuasion, but you have decided to see if you can tolerate her many inexplicable ways. Conversely, if OI=N*BS, then when you see her, you might say hi in passing, but you probably won’t turn around to check out her backside…
Gals, as mentioned above are most definitely more complicated than us. No one can truly know the formula for their OI because they factor in too many variables, such as Gorgeous Eyes (GE), Ruggedly Handsome (RH), Much Money (MM), Good Heart (GH), Brains (B), Cute Butt (CB), or Cool Car (CC). The list goes on and on… For one gal it may be that OI=GE+RH*MM. Another may feel that OI=GH-B+CB/CC and I’m quite convinced that they change their OI formula by the minute, kind of like that rolling code thing your garage door opener uses. I’m amazed that it ever works (guys and gals finding one another, not the garage door), but you have to admit that when it does, it’s a sight to behold…
It’s weird, cause I have about 10 close friends, 3 are women and 2 are gay men, so the other 5 are men, and I have once had a crush on one of them, when I was 17, but now looking back it had nothing to do with wanting to date him or sleep with him. It was more of that “oh my god we have so much in common, we are the best of friends” feeling, that now at 26 I understand a lot better and I can now, seperate the two.
Boys have absolutely no self restraint. Guys not only have no self restraint, but they also don’t care. Dudes not only have no self restraint and don’t care, but also go out on a limb to be dicks. Men however… well at least men try.
Hhhhm. Interesting subject. I think it’s entirely possible for men and women to be just friends. If that’s not the case, then I sure know a bunch of girls I’m trying to get in the sack. I think there’s several categories into which my female friends fit. The first is the one’s I’m obviously attracted to, which hypothetically could turn into something more, but most likely never will. People I’ve met while dating someone, for example, but we still made some sort of connection that just happened to end up being friendship. The second is what I like to call ‘the fake girlfriend’ group. Those are the girls you have as friends that fill in for odd events, like the occasional dinner, office party, or when an annoying girl trys to talk to you and you throw the switch to have her turn on the quise of the girlfriend. And yes, the fake-girlfriend can have a boyfriend, as it in no way affects the situation. Category three is the sister category. I never had any real sisters, but I do have friends that I treat as if they were. These are the types that call up upset about something, the kind you can yell at and fight with and get away with it. Then there’s the fourth, and final, category: that of the ex-girlfriend. It’s very similar to the sister category, only there’s a history of relationship, which can either positively or negatively affect the friendship to some degree. You can do eachother’s laundry, for example.
I have a lot of attractive female friends, sure. If they weren’t attractive in some way or another, I wouldn’t be friends with them. Is it always physical attractiveness? Definitely not. But you don’t become friends with people who don’t attract you in some way.
But what about the sex thing? Harry’s right that it’s there, but he’s wrong that it gets in the way.
Say I meet a girl who’s funny, smart, has a really nice ass, but for one reason or another, the couple thing just wouldn’t work. If I let the sex thing get in the way, then I’ve lost a potential friend, but if I get over it, then I can enjoy her wit and brains on a regular basis, and still enjoy looking at her ass.
I may be a gentleman, but that don’t mean I’m dead.
I think it comes down to this – people make friends with people they are attracted to in some way. With straight guys, we’re attracted to the personalities of our guy friends. With women, some of that gets manifested physically. I have several good girlfriends, but it’s probably not a coincidence that they’re all, in my opinion, quite attractive. And while at this point, even if options were available to change our relationship I wouldn’t, when I first met them I wouldn’t have said that. My best women friends are all either women I met and was attracted to, but then realized we’d be better as friends, or women who are dating or married to one of my good guy friends and therefore unavailable forever.
about 90% of the time, guys take Harry’s side on this question, and girls take Sally’s. I used to take Sally’s, but I think I’ve finally been convinced otherwise.
it’s not that men and women CAN’T be friends – that’s sort of misleading. I think it’s just that it’s never “just friends.” I disagree with the person who said “boys have no restraint.” actually I think men have a whole lot more restraint than women & we just don’t know about it. that is, they’ll go for months or years nursing the (however faint) possibility that they might get together with their female friend – and meanwhile, the woman’s thinking, “see? we’ve been just friends for years. of course men and women can be friends.”
often male-female friendships are facilitated by other ties – he’s friends with your boyfriend, or you have other mutual friends. if those weren’t there, and you clearly sexually rejected him, he’d leave.
when I was all on my own, not a single friend in a new city, I made several male “friends.” I expressed that I was not romantically or sexually interested in them, and was thrilled when they continued to hang out with me. Wow, I thought, they’re really just friends! The minute I started dating someone else, those guys vanished.
I thoroughly agree. I find that my closer guy friends are always quite attractive — and I don’t remember that being a prerequisite for my friendship, but it brings an added dimension. Yes, there is always the passing, ‘hmm, what about Jason, he’s cute, smart, knows how to make me laugh…but we’ve been friends FOREVER.’ And of course that always subsides into me falling for the next cute guy who ISN’T an existing friend. But, I think you do have a point.
I’m a male sophomore in High School, recently coming off a messy break-off of my first ever relationship. Is it just a naive teenage thing to wish that your first relationship ends up being your last?
Well, my thoughts on the issue. Yes. All “friends” of the opposite sex (or same sex, depending on which way you swing) are, at least subconsciously, objects of our desire or need for romance. I don’t have many female friends at all; I can count them on one hand. Of those, I am not “attracted” to any but one. The reason, I think, is that my mind is supressing those urges that would cause attraction. My mind is telling me that it’s against the rules of society to try to get physically close to every girl I see; my mind is telling me that it’s against the respect for an ex-girlfriend/girlfriend. That’s all in the subconscious. So I never realize that I am attracted, unless my mind stops to repress a specific attraction.
Attraction, or the urge to do sexual things,(not sure what the right word is. I’m referring sexual not to the act of sex, specifically, but to all things romantic in general. Cuddling, holding hands, kissing, etc.) comes from human instinct. We are all animals, in a sense, and it’s hardwired in our minds, once we get to a certain age, to reproduce. So we our instincts are constantly telling us to do those kinds of sexual things. That’s why animals seem to reproduce so much more often (than most of us, anyway). As humans, however, our minds are much more developed and advanced, and are thus able to resist and repress those urges.
That might also be the difference between people who are romantics and idealists and try to remain as monagamous as possible, and those that date and have friends “with benefits” (peopel that you hold hands or kiss or do that kidn of stuff with, but isn’t officially your boyfriend/girlfriend. Not sure if it’s a high-school exclusive term) Some of us are more capable of repressing those urges. They tend then, to listen more to human society, which promotes monagamy, than those primal urges. For those who aren’t able to supress it as well, dating is “fun” Instinct tells us to reproduce as much and often as possible, and those who aren’t able to supress attraction are those that have a dozen boyfriends by the time they’re 17 and seemingly can’t be a month apart between boyfriends, and just like to get straight to the good stuff without any development of a relationship. Or maybe that last bit is just some venting by me… I’m a teenager with limited vision, and right now it’s hating love and trying to get to the science of “why”